Backxwash has spent her entire musical career facing identity and trauma head-on, transforming those emotions into ruthless, cathartic and confessional affirmations of self-expression. After her conceptual trilogy of albums powerfully captured the weight of existential dread, Only Dust Remains marks a paradigm shift for the Zambian-Canadian rapper and producer, as she rebuilds her trademark sound through both sample work and brighter, more melodic elements without ever sacrificing the edge of intensity that has marked a decade’s worth of artistry. On her most expansive collection of tracks yet, Backxwash explores inner and outer struggles through topics of faith, loss and resilience, interrogating power structures, systemic violence and even her relationship with spirituality in hopes of seeing brighter days ahead, for both herself and humanity as a whole. We caught up with Ashanti Mutinta to discuss the fearsome reflections of Only Dust Remains and how her music still manages to cut through like a beacon of hope, even when staring deep into the abyss.
Only Dust Remains is your first full-length album since completing the trilogy - God Has Nothing to Do With This Leave Him Out of It (2020), I Lie Here Buried With My Rings and My Dresses (2021) and His Happiness Shall Come First Even Though We Are Suffering (2022). Your industrial edge is still there, but there’s a broader diversity of sounds this time around: many piano and synth sections, a lot more prominent usage of samples. What was your guiding instinct this time around, how did you approach balancing both aggression and clarity during the writing and recording process?
After the last album was done, we took a breather. That time frame was so quick, it was just album after album after album. You don't really take time to have a higher-level view of what you're doing. During that break, I started researching more about music theory and relearning all the stuff that I knew when I was younger. It opened up a brand-new toolbox, but I think I was also rekindling with the music I liked growing up. I was in this aggressive, metal-influenced head over the last three projects, but I had to remind myself this other stuff is also cool. Early 2000s pop, for example, had amazing string sections for no apparent reason at all [laughs]. I was listening to Jessica Simpson’s "Irresistible" the other day and the string section is crazy. "Thong Song" by Sisqó, that also has a crazy string section for no reason at all. It even goes into a weird, soulful break towards the end. I liked how it made me feel, the arrangements and the way they incorporate all these different melodic instruments. I wanted to breathe all of that in, learn new music theory and take my time listening to samples. My taste in samples has also evolved a bit. I'm taking short slices and making sure they're not doing a lot. I learned how to plot my pianos so they sound more realistic - getting Keyscape helped a lot, that’s my favorite VST now. All of that just coincided with us coming up with this album. The first thing we made was "WAKE UP". You can tell it has a more aggressive edge to it, but going through samples and finding all of these interesting sounds just opened up another toolbox that we could use. I didn't want to write myself into a corner and do the same thing again.
To see you raving about 2000s pop music is such a nice surprise. Your love for metal, rap and noise music is well-known and documented, but I wonder what other inspirations (musical and otherwise) did you gravitate towards during the recordings. Do any of them translate onto the new album?
Absolutely. I watched a lot of Björk documentaries and video essays. I like hearing people talk about music and diving into the making process of albums. I used to watch this one from Trash Theory about how Björk made Post, because I was listening to that album a lot as well. I was so inspired by how every song sounds different. In fact, I kind of feel like [Only Dust Remains] is my Post, because there are many stylistic differences among songs. I was also just drawn towards how she does composition. People who produce their own music and write the lyrics are auteurists to me. It's almost like auto-theory for musicians, you have a full picture of how you want everything to sound like. A few years back, I was listening to Late Registration by Kanye West - yes, he's an asshole now [laughs] - and there was Jon Brion on the keys. When I was growing up, I used to be interested in the idea that, if I had to make something like Late Registration, I didn’t want somebody else doing the melodic elements, or cutting the sample and giving it to somebody to fill in the gaps. I want to do the composition and the arrangements, I want to direct the people that are there, in the studio. It's what drew me towards Björk a lot, she’s very hands-on with the compositions she makes. There's a documentary about the making of Vespertine where she's directing a string quartet and coming up with these arrangements on the spot. It's just so cool to me, so yeah, there was a lot of Björk in there [laughs].
I agree though, this does feel like your very own Post. So much variety across the tracklist, even in the same songs. Bringing it back to "WAKE UP", that’s such a multi-textural track. How did you feel recording so many different sections for it? Was it difficult in any way?
It was difficult, but figured out in the writing. It'd be months before I’d go in the studio and record some of these songs. I have to make sure I've already written them, so the writing was more deliberate on this record. I was writing four bars a day, it would take me a week to write a verse. On previous records, I would write the verse on the day before going into the studio and it would sometimes get out of topic. I wanted to make sure that, narratively, everything was concise and compelling this time around. I figured out how ["WAKE UP"] was going to flow when I was writing, but doing it was also pretty difficult. You don't want the beat sections to overpower you, like in that second part, but you also want to be able to shift between different flows. Then there's the last part as well. I had it separated into two different studio set sessions. It was exhausting [laughs].
Let’s talk about the album’s collaborations for a bit. You often work with a wide range of artists - both the trilogy and Only Dust Remains are a great testament to that. Do you mind sharing what you feel the freeing nature of the collaborating process brings to Backxwash as a whole, whether it’s reinforcing your core ideas or taking you in surprising directions?
I think it's a mixture of both, if that makes sense. Back in the day, whenever Michael Go sent me a guitar session that he did, I would essentially just stick it there if it sounded good the way it was. With this record though, I was really interested in the arrangements. There were times when I would get a feature vocal and I immediately felt that it changed the whole second section of the beat, I’d have to go in and take it in a totally different direction. It's a mixture of them reinforcing what I do and playing off of each other, but also me saying “I want you to do this” and, when it comes back, I have to change it all up [laughs]. "DISSOCIATION" is a big testament to that. Michael Go sent me these ‘shoegazey’ guitars and I felt that the drum section the bass, the pianos had to change. What he sent me was so high energy, I just couldn’t keep it going in the original direction.
I feel like Chloe Hotline's chorus on that track flows so seamlessly with the energy of your verses and the instrumental of your verses, so I guess the end result was worth it.
I'm so glad you brought that up! I've been really interested in Chloe Hotline as an artist, she’s so dope. When it comes to doing hooks, I think she's the best out. I had that beat made up with Michael Go on the guitars and I felt it’d be an interesting idea to get maybe two vocalists: Chloe on the first one and then somebody else on the second. When Chloe sent me the first hook, I was like: “alright, this is incredible”. Then I asked her to do the second hook and it became even crazier. There was also the spot at the end, but at that point, I just asked Chloe to riff it to the end. The song was basically hers now [laughs]. She was just so fucking fantastic.
I also wanted to bring up "Stairway to Heaven". Ora Cogan’s vocals add so much to the track, but what surprised me the most when I was listening to it was hearing and recognizing that Anna von Hausswolff sample. I immediately checked the liner notes to see if it was her and it is! It was so unexpected, even if I knew you’d probably be into her music. How did those connections come about?
I've been wanting that sample since 2020 [laughs].
A long time coming then.
Yeah, I've been wanting that sample for a long time, because I'm such a huge fan. I sent her a DM, hoping she’d do samples. Then we actually connected, musician to musician, a few years later and she gave me the blessing to sample that song if I wanted to. I had to be really careful; I love that sample and didn't want to mess it up. When you like a sample so much, you have to take a lot of care with it. That's why I talk about Watch the Throne with Kanye and Jay-Z and it kind of pisses me off. You’ve got an Otis Redding sample and then the whole song is just these sample chops. It's great, but it's arrogant [laughs]. I wanted to make sure the sample didn’t overstay its welcome. It kind of cuts off in the middle of the song and just leaves those guitars from Michael Go going. I had a whole section built out with a drum section there towards the end and Ora Cogan's voice. I was listening to it and it didn't really make sense, I wasn’t into the use of the 808s, so I wondered if we could just strip everything out, leave the piano, and then mix the guitars with Ora Cogan's voice. [The final version] just sounded beautiful to me. I was really, really honored to be able to make that.
What other dream collaborations do you have in mind at the moment?
I've been thinking a lot about Esperanza Spalding. She's sick. In the future stuff, I want to incorporate more jazz elements if I can. I don't know when that's going to be, but I think it'd be really dope. I would also like a Little Simz feature. I was listening to Introvert recently and she sounds so dope over these orchestral arrangements. I want to try that one day and a dream feature from Simz would be crazy. But now, I don't know. I guess I'm in a good state of making music alone as well, if that makes sense. Of course, features with everybody else that I'm using is great, but I like being able to compose by myself and direct moments of it. If I was given an opportunity though, then of course I'd jump at the first chance [laughs].
I also wanted to dive a little bit into the themes of the record. A lot of the album feels like an internal negotiation between existential burden and survival, whether it’s of the self, faith or the ongoing atrocities of the outside world (in Palestine, Congo or South Sudan), living dangerously knowing that every ‘second chance’ - as you framed it on "Black Lazarus" - is a sign that the battle isn’t lost yet. Do you think faith is, in some way, about trying to outlast the impending greed that life brings your way?
The beginning of the record is really antagonistic towards existentialism, the afterlife and the acceptance of it. I think the grander theme is saying that, even though death is inevitable, there's still a chance of survival, but if it does happen, it does happen. I’m going through with this record, but still recognizing other things are going on right now and giving a reminder to people of that. I think it was important to the making of this record. It’s a reminder that, even though I'm having this existential crisis, there are also a lot of things happening right now.
On that topic, I also loved the way you presented "History of Violence", for example. Every visual you introduce through your words is quite literally setting the stage for the shadows of depression and, later on, the dystopian nature of following a genocide through the lens of social media, which is harrowing to think about. The way you frame it makes the track all the more gut-wrenching, to be honest.
Thank you! A lot of people I've talked to really like that one. I never thought it would have that reception, it was almost a throwaway beat. In the first part, I talk about violence that is in my control, because it was something that is happening to me, and in the second part, I shift to violence that’s out of my control. It's a duality between seeing something in the first person versus seeing something in the third person. I wanted to take a lot of care when I was writing those lyrics, because I didn't want to center myself and I didn't want to promote the project based on the topic at hand. I made sure that everything had to be said descriptively, just to remind people about what’s going on, but also to bring people into my world as well.
It's interesting when you talk about violence that’s in and out of your control in the context of this record, because I feel like you’ve always been able to fully translate both of those sides during all these years. Your music is so deeply vulnerable and expressive, whether you choose to make it more explosive or introspective. Is tapping into those intense emotions for performances and songwriting ever draining to you, or does it act as a form of necessary release – even if that means being uncomfortable with performing something so personal in front of other people? It's a lot, I imagine, to process everything by yourself and then share it through your art.
It's a necessary release, for sure. At a point, I'm always wondering if I’m sharing too much [laughs]. At this stage, I think these are the stories that I want to tell, which goes back to me being an auteurist and trying to bring people into your world. I think it's not draining yet, but it might be one day and I might have to switch up my lyrics. I want to do it now though, I’m not forcing myself to think I have to write about that. Also, I think I haven't heard such an existential hip-hop album in a long time, so I wanted to try my hand at making one with this record, just to see what it would be like.
I have to wonder, does that also lead you to writer’s block sometimes? It’s probably hard to pen down so many intense emotions, knowing that vulnerability will be shared with an audience. How do you navigate that?
It's almost about letting the beat speak to you. Instead of saying “I'm getting on this beat and rapping about this”, you start thinking “what’s this beat telling me?”. Once you have a topic, writer's block isn't too crazy. If you're used to writing, you're able to connect ideas. And I was doing four bars a day, so I was able to step away when I needed to and come back the next day with a fresh mind, that helped a lot. Sometimes it does happen though. With the second verse for "WAKE UP", I had to step away for a few weeks, because the beat was intense and I wasn't. The way I was approaching it wasn't as dynamic as what the beat was giving me, but once you approach it with a fresh mind and figure out how to start, then you're pretty much good.
Religious imagery has always been a strong undercurrent in your work, and this new record is no exception. How has your relationship with faith changed over the years? Coming into the more hopeful moments of the album, and when you interrogate God in your music, do you feel like you’re met with a voidful silence, or is there something in the absence itself that speaks back to you?
I think there is something in the absence. I follow my tribe from Zambia, but the absence of it in my life can provide interesting perspectives. "9th Heaven" is likely the most religious track on the record, like turning the idea of a deal with the devil on its head and doing a deal with the angel Gabriel instead. I wanted to use that as a platform to address how existential I was feeling when I was writing the album. Being able to go through a Christian upbringing and being able to use that in my music allows for interesting perspectives. Now that I can look at it from afar, I think it goes back to your point of whether the absence is able to provide the answers I need to form this perspective.
Even in its heaviest moments, there’s always a glimpse of resilience throughout these 10 tracks. Does making an album like this (or any music, in fact) serve as a landmark of hope for you (and your listeners, to some extent)?
I think there's definitely some hope. I never thought this part of my life would happen. I never thought I would make it to the age that I'm at, let alone to be doing this. Even though I’m still confronting these feelings, there's still a light present. Our life here is pretty bleak, but there are still some moments of light in it, and I think it was more apparent on this record. I just feel like it naturally comes up during the recordings, even just writing it. It can’t be completely bleak.
It's good though, to be confronted by your music, and I feel like the Nina Simone quote you include during the closing moments of the title track beautifully summarizes a lot of what I admire about your work. It’s good to have music to not only confront your emotions, but also reality itself, and I feel like you do that beautifully.
Thank you! I used to incorporate a Nina Simone sample in my live performances before I played the last song. I just love her so much and I've been into the speeches she used to make. She speaks a lot to how I feel about everything and the blackness of a musician. A lot of our quotes almost go hand in hand with how I'm feeling at some point.